These videos are from a seminar I did for CrossFit HQ sometime in 2009. There may be more videos, but these are all I could find. It was brought to my attention that I have never posted these videos on elitefts™, so here you go.
CrossFit HQ asked me to do this seminar to learn more about Powerlifting and the methods I have used throughout my career. I also wanted to do this seminar so I could learn about CrossFit from the very core of those who created it and now run it. For those who have asked (so many times) over the years, this was the only seminar I performed for them. This was a two-day seminar, so there was a lot of content covered. I am not exactly sure how much of it was posted, and I am actually seeing some of these clips for the first time today. If you know of any videos from this event that I have not included here please let me know and I will add them.
Enjoy…
Related Articles:
A Debate Between Powerlifting and Olympic Lifting as the Main Athletic Training Method
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Dave Tate is the founder and CEO of elitefts.com, staffed by experienced professionals dedicated to providing strength coaches, athletes and trainers with the highest-quality equipment, personalized service and extensive knowledge needed to advance their training programs.
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Thanks for making those videos freely available Elite FTS – there are some great takeaways for me their particularly from ‘Cueing and Rah Rah’ and ‘Motivation and Self-Esteem’. I’m a novice lifter but I usually read here for some wisdom about life and people written from a lifting perspective but with complete carry-over to business and relationships – the training methodology and experience of expert lifters is a bonus.
This post has one thing in common with nearly every other mention of CrossFit I encounter – vitriol and negativity towards others. That is a toxic culture, and regardless of number of participants any toxic culture will eventually choke itself.
I for one am very glad elitefts has stayed close to its roots. I’ve seen many powerlifters jump ship to make a buck. There’s one right now who used to be a part of elitefts many years and left with a statement that elitefts wasn’t for strength athletes. Now the guy is a huge representative for crossfit company because they stamped his name on a product. It’s amazing how you see a man’s true character as the years go by. Maybe Dave passed up a great deal and has lost sales because of it, but staying true to your roots should still be worth something.
As a serious Crossfitter, I frequent this site almost daily. The content is free and used for marketing so I feel zero obligation to spend my money here. eliteFT tried to hook me, but I have chosen to spend my money elsewhere. Thats capitalism. Over the last year, I have built myself up to a 275 squat (you guys may not think much of that but i am the average gym-goer). Why should I need a mono lift? I can walk that out from some [R-company, will they bleep my comment by mentionoing a competitor's product?] squat stands. If you read their blog, that company says that they make “a quality product the average person can afford”. I can get squat stands for $275. Works for me! Glassman is a business genius and his business is about making millions of average people fit. Elite makes people very strong until their bodies break down, as displayed by their leader. Lastly, the Crossfit journal is worth paying for because they offer the quality info from certified instructors on how to develop maximum fitness. If elite charged then they could offer that standard of info.
“Certified”, that’s funny. Free content…I thought that was a good thing. Crossfit hands out “Certifications” over a weekend. Tate and Wendler etc. give knowledge that would take an eternity to learn. How in the hell do you learn how to snatch or power clean by the time you’re finished with the “course”. You can’t. Simple in theory. But you are ‘certified’ to teach the mechanics and “ways” of the kinetic chain in the blink of an eye? It doesn’t work like that.
I have been a subscriber to the crossfit journal, performance menu, journal of strength and conditioning (current) and a constant reader of elitefts and t-nation. I can say that elitefts is superior. It is on par with the S&C journal in quality and surpasses it in content and oh by the way it is free. i will never bitch about that. The crossfit journal is a rah rah crossfit hug fest and often anything that contradicts the main sentiments gets lambasted, while elitefts offers a wider range of articles. As much as glassman is a business genius, he has been known to wallow in the muck of personal attacks against people more than any reputable CEO should, I don’t think I have seen Dave Tate act in the same manner. Also For a “sport” that takes from everything and admits to borrowing from the best in many fields, it is odd how unappreciative some crossfitters are toward the people they have borrowed from.
Also, I recently bought the 2012 programming book and I have yet to see anything of that quality come from crossfit hq. I believe crossfit deals in vagueness while Dave deals with a definitiveness.
@Brian,
I’m a crossfit competitor and respectfully disagree. The info found in the Crossfit Journal is untouchable and is the best material you will find anywhere. Glassman is a business genius and has every right to defend his name and business when questioned. Remember coach was a great gymnast and went on to cycling and lifting. As a coach none of these worked well for his clients so he came up with the concept behind crossfit. That it’s not important to be great at anything but good and many things. This will produce better health, wellness and longevity. The flip side of this is Tate himself. He spent decades trying to be a great Powerlifter and what does he have to show for it? The fact is he wasn’t that good of a lifter anyhow. His body is now trashed because he wanted to be great at something and let this desire tear his body apart. Major sacrifices made with no real rewards or impact to show it. Based on the videos I see he still trains like an moron and will end up crippled before he is 50 – if he even lives that long. The problem is that Tate is living in the past. He still thinks he can train like he was 20, feels the industry is still about string tank tops, amino acids and baggy pants. He needs to wake up and see crossfit is slowly beginning to own the industry. This is were the money and power is. This is why his customers read the site and buy from others. Training doesn’t have to be so complicated; run, swim, lift, jump, stretch and fuck. That’s all you really need.
Tate does what he does because it’s what he loves. I’m sure he knew about the consequences of heavy lifting over long periods of time. The people who buy into crossfit are the like minded people who believe the vegan diet is the holy grail of all dieting. Here’s the difference: the rule of specificity. Tate’s training can transfer to almost anything. Crossfit gets you good at…well…crossfit. Take a crossfitter out of the sloppy environment of “cheat to beat your last time/score/whatever” and they are nothing. It doesn’t transfer to football, you’re not physically fit enough to fight in a cage, you won’t run a marathon. (for the record, Lance Armstrong once had the highest Vo2 Max ever recorded. His heart is as efficient as it comes. He ran a marathon and finished behind hundreds of people…rule of specificity) So yes, you could win at a “crossfit contest”. Thats about it. Squatting heavy (absolute strength is the only component that increases all other components of lifting) will transfer to marathon running (I know you don’t see why but I’m tired and I don’t feel like explaining it), cage fighting, football, even…thats right…crossfit. I don’t have anything personal against crossfit. I don’t care for the ‘tone’ of their followers who don’t know squat (squat…get it?) about the human body and how it works in relation to the demands that are imposed upon it (SAID principle). Last but not least, if you weigh a buck forty like most crossfitters do, you had better be doing 20 shitty ass pull ups or something is wrong. I say good day!
A lot of the people on here dissing Dave for his injuries need to realize something. Read Dave’s articles on T-nation talking about his evolution as a lifter and trainer. Realize that most of Dave’s injuries happened BEFORE he really started educating himself. BEFORE he joined Westside. BEFORE EliteFTS.
Dave will admit he trained stupidly for a long time. Now, did he have injuries after joining Westside? Of course. However, most of those were not due to programming, or because of the Westside method, but because Dave is a hardheaded stubborn cuss who likes the word “fuck” too much. He knew to back off, but didn’t.
The training methods Dave espouses are not harmful. In fact, in many ways, they are the epitome of sport science in that his programs are constantly evolving, and constantly getting evolved due to the results that he observes. He doesn’t do cookie-cutter crap on the wall approach programs that were randomly assigned from the Net and given to a large group of people en mass.
Now, is Dave’s powerlifting programs the best for sport preparation? Of course not, and Dave will be the first to admit it (in fact, in a few of the videos, the one on squats comes to mind first, he states this bluntly). A football player is not gonna train exactly the same as a powerlifter, nor a basketball player, etc. Hell, even within a team sport, different positions are most likely going to train differently. But the carryover of Dave’s ideas and programming smarts are applicable to most.
As for certs and “cashing in,” honestly, who gives a fuck? Tony Little cashed in, made a shit-ton of money for a few years as “America’s Personal Trainer” hawking Gazelles. Billy Blanks made a lot of money doing Tae-Bo. The goofy ass chicks Zumba-ing around and WHOOO-ing like Ric Flair are making money. And of those, Little and Blanks are considered jokes in the industry now, and many now consider Zumba a laugh riot as well.
I’ve read EliteFTS for years. I’ve had Dave and others answer questions when I’ve e-mailed them. Sadly, I haven’t ordered, merely because of shipping to Japan, where I live (when even the price of mini-bands is doubled or tripled by shipping and import taxes, it’s just too much). And I give more weight to Dave than any laundry list of certs, alphabet soup letters, or other BS that can be tacked on after some d-bag’s name.
What I like is better then what YOU like. You don’t do what I do, so that makes you stupid.
Tools.
I’m dizzy reading all this nonsense lol. Its interesting how protective some CFers get about how special and better their training is compared others. Same thing goes with whatever you decide to do to better yourself and you feel the need to tell the people this is the best thing for the people. My take is do whatever the hell gets you off your ass and get Vigorous! Crossfit, run, powerlift, strongman, swim, box, kick box, jujitsu, chase chickens in an Alley HA or whatever you get the jist. Just do something…….Isn’t that the point to make yourself better, whatever you decide to do? I have nothing but admiration for Dave and Elitefts who, over the last few years, helped my lifting, training and coaching ability tremendously 100% and I thank them all. On that note I’m out YESSSSSSSSSS
It’s people like some of the commenters above that make cross fitters look like such massive douchebags. Self congratulatory bullshit from do-nothing wanks trying to cut down others. Your pathetically ignorant rants will impress no one, and only serve to diminish your selves and your “sport.”
Somewhere, someone is dying of some horrible incureable disease, but the arguement between “that stupid CrossFit stuff” with lesser quality equipment versus “being a fat powerlifter” that needs to buy the highest quality equipment (from EliteFTS) so they don’t kill themselves during training is the biggest problem in life for some of the others who have commented on here.
I own an EliteFTS Signature Monolift. After using it, I can confidently say that my testicles wouldn’t fit between a normal pair of squat stands. I am also a CF-L1. My Fran time at 280lbs is better than most 100lbs less than me and I have an 800lb deadlift. Why does any of this matter? Well, it really doesn’t. Everyone else was saying stuff they did and I wanted to cram a shameless plug into the conversation.
Anyway, Dave, thank you for everything you put out for FREE on here. Obviously, from the bitching and whinning that seem to transend every sport discipline, you reach a wide array athletes from many different walks of sport. After reading all of the insanity above, it looks like I am one of the few that backs up my support by buying your products… which I will continue to do until I get killed under a heavy barbell. Thanks again.
-Mike Hedlesky
MBarnstaple – where in Japan are you? I’m on the northwest side of Tokyo on the border with Saitama. I ordered stuff from Elite and had it sent to my brother, who graciously put it all in the package he was sending for Christmas. Great stuff!
One thing people need to understand about CFers (and I’m speaking as one myself), is that for many in the community, this is their first time to be active and successful. Lots of people get into CF and get their first pull up/handstand/muscle up and feel super empowered in regards to their body for the first time ever. This leads to the Fight Club mentality of sizing others up everywhere you go. ‘Bad food choices’, ‘their knees hurt because they don’t know how to squat’, ‘they should be taking fish oil to fight inflammation’, etc. The combination of success in something you thought was shut down for you + a little knowledge leads to a lot of the issues we see here and hear about.
I hate to admit it, but I was that way too. Give these guys some time, and in a year they’ll realize that with a goal of wanting to be the best that they can in everything, they’ll benefit the most by learning as much as they can from ALL of the experts in every field, including (and especially) the ones that aren’t involved in CF.
I know that if I had had the opportunity to have someone like Dave Tate, Jim Wendler, or Clint Darden teach me how to effectively become stronger faster, I would have improved in every area of CFing that I tried, despite those guys not being official ‘CrossFit’ people. Just the technique info on the big lifts would have gone a long way, and I guarantee that Dave would ask me what my goals were, and base his teaching of programming around those goals so I could get the biggest bang for my buck.
I think some of those zumba chicks are pretty damn hot.
Hmm… Crossfit v. Dave Tate (EliteFTS)? Sounds eerily familiar… Crossfit v. Mark Twight (Gym Jones). Drink the cool-aid or critically think for yourself.
Here is another video from this seminar that didn’t get posted.
OMG! That video is a joke. Dave is your stereotypical meat head and has no business speaking about injuries at all. With one quick google search I found his injury list from years ago.
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“Unfortunately, my injury total has also been accumulating. Here’s a brief summary of all my major injuries, starting with my first one in 1986. I’ll begin with the calves and move up. Also keep in mind that these are just the major ones that left me immobile for more than a week:
• Calves: I’ve torn both of them, leaving a huge indentation in each.
• Right Knee: Back in the late 80′s I strained my ACL and that left me on crutches for two weeks. I’ve had three other similar strains since that time.
• Right Hamstring: I tore this hamstring so badly that I nearly needed surgery to fix it.
• Left Knee: I’ve partially torn my patellar tendon. This wasn’t bad, pain-wise, but it did mess up my squatting for four months.
• Quad: I pulled my right quad in the early 90′s. It was so bad that it turned my entire leg black.
• Groin: I’ve injured my groin on both the right and left sides. This was a year of hell where there was nothing I could do to get it fixed. So I just wrapped it up and dealt with it. After a year it got better.
• Lower Abdominal: I tore my lower abdominal muscles seven years ago. I did this while squatting and it was perhaps the most painful injury I’ve ever had.
• Spine: The following discs are herniated: L4, L5, C4, C5. C4 and C5 left my hand numb for a few months. L4 and L5 occurred over 14 years ago and required me to take two months off training
• Intercostals: I’ve strained two on each side over the past ten years.
• Left pec: I tore this muscle at the tendon and needed surgery to repair it.
• Right pec: I tore this muscle in half but decided to not have surgery since the tendon was still attached.
• Both pecs: I’ve torn each at least 20 times and each time caused the entire pec to turn black and blue. All of these happened before the above pec injuries.
• Right shoulder: I’ve had a torn supraspinatus, bone spurs, and now have arthritis. I had this shoulder cleaned up with the AC shaved down to allow more movement, but am now experiencing almost all the same ailments in the same shoulder. Doctors are talking replacement.
• Left shoulder: This one also has arthritis, but isn’t as bad as the other.”
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Add to this the added MRI results he posted in his OWN training log a few weeks ago.
http://asp.elitefts.net/qa/training-logs.asp?qid=180469&tid=124
SERIOUSLY!!! This guy is giving injury advice?
All this proves is that crossfit programing is better because the injury rates are lower when you don’t push one thing to the max but work to be good across the board.
That video just validated the reason, logic and method behind crossfit training and that Dave Tate really shouldn’t be coaching anything related to training.
You ever think that just maybe crossfit didn’t want him and that’s why he only did one seminar? I sure as hell would not want him to do a seminar at my box.
@ chris,
I am not sure I can take you serious, when you say you respectfully disagree and then you go on to lambast Dave Tate. Your post has internet troll written all over it, but for arguments sake I am not sure how you can equate Dave wrecking his body while trying to be a elite powerlifter with being wrong and Glassman wrecking his body from gymnastics being okay (and I would like to see the bio on where Glassman was a “great” gymnast).
As for the content of the two, first, elitefts is free. 2nd I dare you watch some of the videos on the journal that show crossfit affiliates and tell me how much shitty form you see (or don’t see if that is the case). 3rd, there has to be a distinction between the general fitness population and the athletic population. Yes, there are some very athletic individuals doing crossfit but they are the cream of the crop in exercise not athletic events. For instance, take rich froning and have him compete at the olympic level in decathalon or olympic weightlifitng. After reading, your post further I realize your post is probably an exaggeration and an attempt at irony (I hope it is at least).
And also I think you forgot to add throw a softball, do a bench press off a ghd, and ghd sit-ups slash medicine ball tosses into the formula.
@garry
you can also google ray lewis and kobe bryant and see that they also developed a laundry list of injuries chasing excellence. And as for stereotypical meathead, I am not quite sure how he would fall into that category when he has created a successful business, provided valuable resources, committed time and money to raising money for the make a wish foundation. But I am not here to comment or speak for Dave.
What is becoming apparent throughout this thread is that the only thing stereotypical is the response of the avid crossfitter: it starts with a personal attack filled with tons of vitriol and venom, then it turns back to the “you do not know anything about training” and ends with my training is better than your training. And as for validating crossfit, what the video stated was that if the lifter in question wanted to pursue his goals in olympic weightlifting than he needed to cut out any silly bs that might get him hurt and/or that doesn’t lead to improving his goals. If Jon North or Donny Shankle got a slap tear from doing kipping pull-ups during Fran I am sure they would be pretty upset with themselves for doing that when it didn’t have any true bearing on their training goals or for instance the fact that NBA/NFL/MLB players have clauses in their contracts prohibiting them from certain activities in the off-season to prevent silly b.s. injuries.
I did my first powerlifting meet in 1968, have a degree in the field, and I’ve seen training methods come and go. Some are good, some are fads. Regarding cross-fit, without a doubt you can get a good workout, but expecting cross-fit to take you to the next level in any sport other than crossfit may result in disappointment. Jumping on boxes and shaking ropes will make you good at jumping on boxes and shaking ropes. Flipping tires will more than likely eventually result in back trouble as you go to heavier tires because you will be out of an ideal pulling position. Some people will never be able to get the olympic lifts, and doing them improperly will be a waste of time. I had a high school football player whose forearms were too long and he couldn’t power clean without putting the bar into his trachea. This kid also squatted 350 as a 148 lb.16 year old. Norm Schemansky, who last medalled bronze in the 1964 Olympics once said, “If you want to increase your snatch, do more snatches.” That pretty much sums it up for sports whether you’re catching footballs, hitting baseballs, pitching baseballs, kicking field goals, punting, serving tennis, deadlifting, or whatever.
I just read all these comments. Is there really any doubt why elitefts doesn’t embrace this? I know several big name powerlifters have but they never have had the character and integrity of Tate so they had nothing to lose.
I’m an avid crossfitter and have been for about 3 years, and have qualified for regionals 2x. Powerlifting is not crossfit. Crossfit is not powerlifting. The goal of crossfit is to be exceptional at multiple fitness areas (oly lifting, powerlifting, rowing, conditioning, etc). Powerlifting and Elites audience is meant to be strong as shit amazingly good at one thing: lifting heavy weights.
That being said, I’ve incorporated Dave’s advice into my training almost daily as it has helped me become stronger at deadlifts, bench, squats, etc. I utilize other websites for other crossfit related workout goals, but I think in terms of getting strong and solid advice Elites is king.
I do expect to be thinner than a powerlifter, and I do expect to beat them in a 5k. I expect to lose every time when it comes to 800lb squats. If you other crossfitters want to take strength advice from crossfit sites who only focus. 15% of their time on it, go ahead. I listen to Dave to get me stronger because that is his goal and focus.
I apologize for any fellow crossfitters (especially those talking about less injuries in crossfit).
Wow! A lot of Them vs US comments, and vice versa.
I do have a legitimate question.
What type of injuries are incurred from Crossfit training? I would think the Kipping Pullup and Muscle-Up would be highly stressful to the shoulder and elbows.
Well I have to jump in on this one. Let me first cover the basics before addressing Crossfit:
1. Ridiculous to associate Dave’s injuries with knowledge. Two totally separate things and as pointed out by others, anyone who competes in the sport of their choice accepts inherent risks of associated injury.
2. Someone said “Crossfit is more of a sport than powerlifting has been or will be”. Speaking literally and not to just antagonize the CF guys even further, but no its not. CF has been a so-called sport for a few years, period. Making blanket statements that are factually incorrect makes you look stupid. I’m not even going to address that it’s a made-up sport to promote a business (which has in fact turned into a sport to promote a brand – Reebok – which I guess doesn’t count under the “not for sale” mantra) because that’s beside the point. I will acknowledge it’s a sport for sake of this discussion. But it’s not a debatable issue that it’s “more of a sport” because it’s simply not.
3. I dont see how anything related to Dave posting these videos leads into a debate about the equipment Elite Fitness sells other than it being the typical Crossfit defense by diverting attention from the original question or issue.
Now my two cents:
Read everything James Smith has on his website and has answered in the Q&A at elitefts.com and you will quickly realize that NONE, yes, let me say that again NONE of these weekend certified CF “coaches” really know as much as they need to know and that includes all the way up to Glassman himself. People keep saying he is a business genius. I will give you he knows business a lot better than he knows training (even though he did just pay out $16 million for a company he already owned). But when you dig below the surface of what comprises “knowledge” the ability to randomly create workouts from a pool of 15 – 20 exercises does not exactly make you a competent coach. I have said it before and I will say it again, random workouts in a random order are not a program, but random workouts in a specific order are also not a program.
And for the whole “good at everything” but not “great at anything”, well I take issue with that. It is more accurately reflected to say Crossfitters are “good at everything Crossfit related”. Because I don’t see a huge amount of evidence that doing CF will make you good at everything which in and of itself is such a generic metric as to be impossible to quantitatively substantiate.
Crossfit has never had real programming (until someone can prove to me otherwise) and quite honestly no clear-cut direction in its mission of “fitness” other than to get people to do Crossfit. They define their parameters of fitness which can conveniently only be achieved by doing Crossfit. Much of the Crossfit crowd is younger so doesn’t remember things such as the aerobics fitness trend of the early 80s or the Nautilus machine era before that but just like these things, Crossfit at its core is still more or less a fitness industry fad and I know they will point out the incredible success that CF has had and the rise of affiliate gyms….but I will just as quickly point out that as of 2010, 3 million copies of P90X had been sold. That’s how trends/fads work. They get going, build up steam, experience a huge surge of popularity until they eventually reach their respective tipping point. Will anyone care about P90X or Crossfit 10 years from now? How will CF affiliates operate when their are literally 3 on every street? Right now nobody knows.
What honestly frustrates me the most about CF is exactly what is taking place right here. I don’t know why Dave was ever asked to speak at CF in the first place. They don’t care about powerlifting methodologies. They have had Louie in, Rip in, and yet go to main site WOD. How much of those influence are represented? It’s like asking someone for advice on a topic you have already made your mind up about. What’s the point?
@ andy hepler great post!
@osmosis
As for crossfit related injuries, I am not sure what the documentation is per rate of participation compared to say football (4.36 injuries per 1000 exposures) or even girl’s soccer (2.36 injuries per 1000 exposures) which have a very documented injury to participation history because of numerous ER visits, Athletic Trainer’s reports, numerous studies and just a wider database to pull from (info above was taken from a 2005-2006 CDC report). In crossfit, I have personally seen low back injuries (particularly in females), I have read multiple accounts of achilles tear injuries stemming from high rep box jumps, and also slap tears in the shoulder due to kipping pull-ups. That doesn’t include tears to hands or the badge of crossfit, rhabdo. Also if you visit most competitions you will see a walking billboard for kinesio tape on most participants. As for specific numbers, that would be out of my realm of knowledge.
I learned A TON from these vids and was very grateful that Greg Glassman asked Dave T to do them, and that Dave did them. Learning to box squat has had more impact on my mobility and overall hip function than I could describe. Aside from all of the healing I’ve seen doing CrossFit, no other single movement has given me as much as box squats, which I learned from watching vids from this seminar.
CrossFit gives many good things to many people, as does powerlifting, and as a CrossFitter I’m grateful for all the knowledge that Louie Simmons, and Dave, have aquired and made available to all.
I bought a lot of fine gear from Elite FTS after these Tate vids were presented via CrossFit.
The bad blood that can flow both ways between the PL community and the CF community is pointless. PLers and CFers use remarkably similar concepts (high intensity, variation, functional movements as the basis of our programming) to chase very different goals.
RE: Dave’s Injuries
To those speaking about Dave’s injury history I have some points to make.
Read his books!
Have you ever really wanted something? I mean REALLY to the point you would do anything? How many months did that drive you? It drove Dave for over 20 years!
This cost him friends, jobs, money, and relationships. This damaged his family, almost cost him a divorce and he considered taking his own life. He was told by many people including Louie to stop and he kept going until his body forced him to stop. He gave all he fucking had and paid his price for it. I’m sure this wasn’t easy but he moved on TO HELP OTHERS!
Back to your goal. What price have you paid and for how long? Think about Dave, look in the mirror and be honest.
You may see his choices as stupid, irresponsible, selfish and hold this against him. I see a man who was willing to give and sacrifice all he had to achieve a goal. The physical and emotional scars he built over the years is a testament to commitment, discipline and resolve not weakness.
A man who has gave all he has, walked through hell and paid dues higher than orders would ever consider is a man I want to listen you. We learn through pain and adversity not a fucking Internet journal!
I always belived you should never get all your info from one place. Been doing crossfit for a year, but really enjoy the info here and from Westside. As far as injuries go, since I am not an elite athlete maybe it this is easier for me to say but I know when to back off.
Actually I do not read/subscribe to any crossfit sites
Not to metion my trainer is very good about correcting form and we actually focus alot on strength (Wendler 531) and MMA/jijitsu/boxing.
Thank also for affordable products :) we buy medicine balls from Elite and title boxing rather than the crossfit standard dynamax.
@ Andy: “What honestly frustrates me the most about CF is exactly what is taking place right here. I don’t know why Dave was ever asked to speak at CF in the first place. They don’t care about powerlifting methodologies. They have had Louie in, Rip in, and yet go to main site WOD. How much of those influence are represented? It’s like asking someone for advice on a topic you have already made your mind up about. What’s the point?”
The reason Dave was invited is that Coach Glassman respected Dave Tate enough to ask him to speak. If you look at the video from CF.com that intro’d the series, Greg made that clear.
CrossFitters are a broad spectrum of folks, but that’s not what you see, apparently. Many of the most widely admired coaches in CF use elements that look just like Westside programming, and the “CrossFit Total” was introduced by Rip. Lots of CrossFitters use Rip’s books to learn and experiment with and many start with Rip’s 5×5 template. Many use or have used 5-3-1. With all of the Westside vids on CF.com, you see folks working Louie’s genius into their training.
I think this happens for two reasons. 1. We have a rebellious streak, which is why we caught on to CF early, but we even rebel from CF and try “programming” vice “continuous variation.” 2. Many CFers have an S&C background, and so think “programming” is the only way to get a desirable result. In short – there was a time when the vast majority of CFers “did the WOD” from CF.com and thought of that as being CrossFit. But if you look at older CF Journal articles, the idea from HQ has long been that CF should have a starting point – constantly varied functional movement executed at high intensity, implemented to deliver a broad, inclusive fitness (but avoiding specialization) – and from there it should be an open source model. That is what has happened. Many gyms add more Oly training, some add more powerlifting, some do neither, some do the .com WOD every day, and some do these long amalgamations that make no sense to me or anyone else – but that’s what open source development is for. It makes room for all kinds of testing and if someone finds an approach that is definitively better, everyone benefits.
Louie isn’t one of a kind because he did powerlifting according to what they teach in university S&C programs. From what I’ve seen he doesn’t use terms like meso and micro cycles and he doesn’t have a four year plan to enable the theoretical athlete to peak at the right time. He learned a unique way to get stronger with less injuries and in the process eliminated all that programming BS – he’s the ideal of open source model development. And of course, his students don’t do exactly what he did – they are also trying to get it better than Louie did.
As I’ve learned what Westside is, I’ve been struck by how similar the CF template is. Westside is about as “constantly varied and high intensity” as you can get within the parameters of being the best in the world at the squat/dead/bench.
As an aside, if I get a result I like, does it matter if I got it from “programming” or not?
Results, obviously, are all that matters. If athletes get results they value, they will continue to use the methodology that delivers said results. People get all wrapped up about CF’s fad status, cult status, lack of “programming”, association with Reebok, and violation of the sacred principles of the S&C world (“dear god, damn those sinners!”). Forget all of that. When CF gives folks a result they like, they keep doing it. For those who don’t get their needs met at some point, they do something else. Perhaps it will be another fad, who knows. My observation is that 99.5% of all unsolicited forecasts are worth what you paid for them.
Do I know “a lot” about fitness and health? I don’t know. I know a million percent more than I did when I found CF in 2007. Most folks that I coach fall into the same category, and they learn more every day. You can lump CF in w P-90X if you like, but there are significant differences, one being that CF places a premium on learning as much as you can. I’ve seen folks get great results from P90X but when the CDs are complete, they revert to what they were before they started. After what I’ve learned about health and fitness and training from CF, I’ll never be the same, even if I choose some other modality to train at some point.
If CF is as “dangerous” as some folks like to think, you can be sure it will come to a crashing halt since we’ll not have anyone healthy enough to come train with us any longer. As a skier, martial artist, football player, lifetime lifter, retired Naval Officer and now a five year CrossFitter, I know my injuries came from all the other stuff I did. My CF “injuries” have not been fun, but I’ve not missed more than five days in a row of training since 2007, which is to say my “injuries” have not even been in the same ball park as injuries I had doing all that other stuff I did.
I love CrossFit because I love the results I achieve. I love the people I interact with in CF. I love how much I can help the athletes I get to train, Whether that be the lawyer who wants to get stronger, or the mother that wants a workout mountain to climb every day, or the 70 year old who can now deadlift 45 pounds and her doc says her bone scan is beautiful.
That whole post about not buying equipment from elite because you’re not going to ever squat 1000 lbs, is the most ridiculous f*&#ing statement I’ve ever read. That fact that you would settle for an inferior product just because you aren’t that strong is idiotic. I just bought a classic rack from Elite. Sure, I could have saved a couple hundred bucks buying Rogue, but now I have a power rack my son will be using 20 years from now along with the 3 bars and prowler I got at Elite. Stick to what you know. Board shorts, burpees and walking handstands. You know who else does acrobatics and wears neon clothes? Clowns.
@paul
I’ve known Louie for 20 years and do know how he speaks and where he learned from. You made a nice speech but have no clue what you are talking about regarding Louie or Westside.
Some of these comments are pure gold. Yes the way you train is 100% superior to the way anyone else trains, your lifting guru is a well respected genius and flawless physicial specimen while anyone who wants to powerlift will only destroy their bodies attempting to do so.
This is the type of garbage that gives crossfitters a bad rap. This elitist attitude isn’t helping you your training or anyone. If you can’t even fathom questioning your go to manual you are foolish, regardless of your lifting style of choice. Do you really think every powerlifter in the world agrees with everything ever published on this site? Probably not.
@Matt,
That had to be the best post of everyone….period.
adaminjapan- I live in Nagano prefecture. Been here for about 5 years. u?
@Paul – that’s a very rational and detailed answer. I appreciate your insight and agree on some points. I am glad you enjoy CF and they need more guys like you instead of some of the other people on this thread representing CF.
My remarks:
#1. The thing about different coaches actually using programming and trying different things with their program. I know they do and I “get” that. However that is actually kinda one of the things that is a problem with Crossfit… and that is what actually is Crossfit? See I know its wrong to base CF solely on what the WOD is on the main site, however it’s the main site for a reason!! That represents what Crossfit is. Nobody can see what programming random coaches around the country are doing and for that reason for many of us we will continue to look at http://www.crossfit.com as being representative of CF.
And the second part of the “What is CF/” conundrum is exactly what you pointed out:
“Many gyms add more Oly training, some add more powerlifting, some do neither, some do the .com WOD every day, and some do these long amalgamations that make no sense to me or anyone else – but that’s what open source development is for. “
I have often asked my friends who like CF what makes it a CF workout? For example if I put together a circuit of power cleans, handstand pushups, GHR situps for a 15/12/9 circuit am I doing Crossfit? Well if I am I had better not claim to be doing it in a non-CF gym or I will be in trouble. See the thing is open-source is open-source. There are very few parameters on it. That’s the whole point. CF is open source….provided you do it with a CF instructor in a CF gym the CF way.
If I post an ad on craigslist and I say looking for Crossfit workout partners. And I try and get 3 – 4 people to meet with me at my gym and do CF workouts will I be getting nasty emails from CF legal to stop using their name on craigslist? I genuinely don’t know, but one thing I have seen over the years as CF has developed from the early days is more precedent placed on crossfitting in a CF facility as opposed to just crossfitting in general.
I know someone who is actually a CF affiliate but also has a regular gym combined with his CF facility. He is not allowed by his affiliate agreement to let gym members use the CF area unless they are signed up for a CF class. Again I say, define not what is a CF workout, but what defines I am doing CF period? If anything can fall under the auspices of doing Crossfit (a la the coaches implementing different strength training protocols like you mentioned) then what equals CF and what equals everything else?
Now on this you said “As an aside, if I get a result I like, does it matter if I got it from “programming” or not?”
On the surface perhaps no, but in the bigger picture yes. Because if you and I did the same thing and you got results and I didn’t then why didn’t I? Programming is part science and part art form but ultimately programming is necessary to know the “whys” and the “hows” so that consistency of purpose within a training medium can be achieved.
I still say if you get results with little to no programming you would get even better results with programming. If you set out on a cross country trip with no map and no idea where you are going….if you keep driving you will eventually get to the other coast. But it doesn’t mean you wouldn’t have gotten there faster and more efficiently with a map.
Not a super huge Westside fan so I won’t comment there. People give them too much credit. It’s a VERY good sport-specific training methodology for the sport of geared powerlifting and that’s really where there benefit lies.
Now where I do agree with you is on the whole “dangerous” thing. You will notice I did not criticize CF for being dangerous. Lots of things are dangerous. I have posted my fair share of videos on my youtube channel of my athletes doing things the exercise police would call dangerous. People need to be smart enough to not bite off more than they can chew whether its CF workouts or anything else.
I would like to thank Dave Tate and the Elite crew for advancing my training. That said, I would also like to thank all people training with intensity to achieve goals. I do respect powerlifting, c/f, and bodybuilding as well as oly lifting. However, most posts in this thread have the irrational belief that having unwavering convictions as to one’s disipline is tantimount to success. Being able to question and test one’s convictions is how one should proceed.
Coach Quail, I enjoyed your post and the thoughts that resulted over the weekend. I have typed a response that will post on my blog later today at http://www.fireofthegodsfitness.blogspot.com (after I’ve refined my thoughts). It would not be of much value to the audience here, and perhaps not to you either. I have responded in the even handed fashion that you chose, blunt but not personal. I have been to the link you cite before, and since I know most of the stories behind those “facts”, and understand the context, it’s just a hit piece to me.
If anyone wanted to understand what CF is and what it is for, they can get the white paper here:
http://journal.crossfit.com/2002/10/what-is-fitness-by-greg-glassm.tpl
“I have well over $100,000 put into my education and still have much more to learn to be the coach I want to be”
That is the road, the attitude, I aspire to. Results with clients is the test.
@Paul – Posted January 4, 2013 at 4:47 PM
With all due respect because your post was made in a well thought out, logical and respectful manner I do think some of what you posted has lead to how crossfit trainers are perceived in the strength and conditioning community.
@Andy made some excellent points so I won’t repeat the same thing again. I do feel this document needs to be read to understand the philosophy and history of crossfit.
http://joshsgarage.typepad.com/Crossfit_White_Papers_–_Timeline.html
The one thing I wanted to point out is you have been studying strength and conditioning since 2007. Do you realize this is only 5 years? Your community has taken a stand that sports science is a joke and strength & conditioning coaches are mislead. These coaches (me being one) usually have a masters degree in a fitness related field. I also have my CSCS and had to took this at a time when you could only take it if you had a degree in a fitness related field (now any degree will work). My 6 years of formal education just provided me a base level of understanding to build on. After that I have spent 10 years working in the field, networking, going to conferences and reading all I could find from American, Canadian, Eastern Block and many other coaches. I have well over $100,000 put into my education and still have much more to learn to be the coach I want to be.
There are many factors that go into being a sports coach that far exceed just lifting weights and tips you will pick up online. The main role of these are to provide ideas and launch pads for more research. Glassman and crossfit has and still does belittle my profession and now has the audacity to say “they” are creating “professionals” in a field where they have never existed. This is not done with a weekend certification or even 5 years of reading the Journal.
To be fair and put this into perspective I do think it is far worse for people to market themselves as experts based on what they can lift. I just read an article on t-nation that listed a program where speed was implemented toward the end of a strength session (there are many scientific and practical reasons why this is unsafe and can blunt progress) by a guy who squatted close to a grand raw with less than two years powerlifting. He has no back ground in sports preparation outside of his own training and a few years working with clients. He would have squatted what he did regardless of what program he used. The man is a genetic freak proven again with him becoming a pro strongmen is less than one year. I am not saying he doesn’t have something to offer because he does but you have to look at the total picture and be educated enough to spot when something is off so it can be disregarded leaving the other information to be absorbed. There can be gold if you know how to look for it.
To see Dave Tate being bashed (on his own site) for his training knowledge is insane to me. I have never once heard Dave say he knew anything about training outside of training for powerlifting. I have heard him speak 4 times over the years and he is very clear about this. He also has a degree in exercise science, got his CSCS when it wasn’t easy to pass, spent over 15 years working was a trainer, and has instructed hundreds if not thousands of people the concepts behind dynamic effort and max effort application for strength. He has my respect because he has spent time in the trenches and has never pretended to be something he is not.
Almost 100 posts and not one on the actual content of the videos posted. That alone should tell us all something.
Bill Roberts, I’m fully aware that I know less than I don’t know. What I know, I can show you a vid of Louie saying it. Sure, I’d also like to know what you know as one who lived it. I get to a SME training session once/year, then spend the next year learning what they taught and figuring out how to use that knowledge in my gym. The CrossFit Powerlifting session is next.
To Dave Tate,
I am a small gym owner and if you are reading this please know I love what you guys do and stand for. I have supported elitefts in the past and will do so in the future. Your site has helped me grow as a lifter, business and person. With all the mudslinging I want to personally thank you and your staff for the work they do. – Bree
Andy,
I think I can speak to some of these things.
If curious, check out OPT, Outlaw Way, CF Invictus, CrossFit Memphis; these are gyms that have freely available non CF.com WODs. I know folks judge the entirety of CF based on CF.com, and I observe that the majority of folks that do so also don’t even read the “What is CrossFit” article before they pronounce judgment. Not much to be done about that. Humans are not that great at keeping perspective in the midst of complexity.
“I have often asked my friends who like CF what makes it a CF workout? For example if I put together a circuit of power cleans, handstand pushups, GHR situps for a 15/12/9 circuit am I doing Crossfit? Well if I am I had better not claim to be doing it in a non-CF gym or I will be in trouble.”
Anyone can do any workout they want to do in any place they can legally be there, be it the cf.com WOD or anything they make up in that template. All of the knowledge of CF.com can be used by anyone, for free.
This is just like anyone can mix sugar, cola flavor/color, and carbonated water and drink it anywhere. But they can’t sell it as coca cola.
What might get you trouble is if you use CrossFit’s copyrighted material or other intellectual property without attribution in business operations. In that case, you might get a cease and desist letter from CF legal. If you think they are wrong, you can fight them and then the court decides if there’s been some violation of the law. In this way, CF is like any other business which defends it’s intellectual property or branding or whatever.
That circuit above – unless you use it in business operations and call it CrossFit, or “CrossFit style” or some other way that’s clearly intended to generate business based off of the brand, you are just doing workouts. I’m not a lawyer and don’t play one on TV and an not authorized to speak for CFHQ, but this is the law as I understand it. The details are a nightmare but the concepts are basic.
“Again I say, define not what is a CF workout, but what defines I am doing CF period? If anything can fall under the auspices of doing Crossfit (a la the coaches implementing different strength training protocols like you mentioned) then what equals CF and what equals everything else?”
This is a great question but I can’t answer it beyond the above. But I would suggest if you don’t do these workouts in your gym for profit and advertise them as CrossFit, it doesn’t matter in a practical sense.
I’m sure, for example, that as an affiliate I’m going to be competing with gyms that use CrossFit workouts to train classes. These classes will be run by folks on essentially minimum wage or just a contract fee per class. These class leaders will be charismatic rah rah coaches that may or may not know anything about how to help people move with more skill. The charge to the gym members will be a fraction of what I charge. If I cannot deliver a better result to my members (results that matter to my members, which is to say, each may desire a different outcome) than these 24/7/$15/month gyms, I will be out of business. And if I understand it right, that just what CFHQ wants. They want a world in which the best possible gyms survive and the customers decide which gym is best. If you want to use CF’s intellectual property to attract members, though, you have to affiliate, get trained by HQ, and abide by the affiliate contract.
I agree completely with you point about programming – if you don’t have an idea why your programming works, you can’t repeat the results or improve the results. If a CF gym uses a “program” that does not match the concept that you or I have of what programming is, but the athletes like the result, defacto, the programming was good.
I still don’t really understand why I made the gains I did using CF.com from 2007 to 2008 – despite my best efforts to tailor my training to my circumstances (average athlete, 48 years old, reconstructed knee, bad shoulders forever, and workouts just one of many essential elements of my life), I have yet to exceed my peak numbers in most respects from 2008. The exception to that is skill – high skill movements I’ve largely improved on over time by the learning/practice necessary to gain skill.
My map is very general – I have to do things I suck at (running, muscle ups, high skill movements), and do what I’m relatively better at regularly but not as much as the “suck work”, organized around continuous variation in my daily workouts.
But the larger point is that the programming/periodization folks who pontificate forever about how essential it is to do what they value have not produced the best CF athletes. Which is not to say programming does not matter. It doesn’t matter as much as the self perceived programming gurus think it does.
Seems to me that if a guy thinks they are great at programming, and see that as a reason for significance, they are always going to react defensively to CF, which places more emphasis on skilled movement, variation and intensity than on detailed long term programs.
Dave,
If you are not aware Rogue has been ripping off many of your products. The latest is what looks to be an exact copy of your P2 belt. I am not sure if there is anything you can do about it but this isn’t the first time. I know others have also done this but I have never seen anyone do it to the extent they have.
http://shine.yahoo.com/financially-fit/fitness-fads-waste-money-031200060.html
I just looked at the post with Dave’s MRI data. I also read his article related to these. The comments above are missing the most important takeaway. I’m an orthopedic surgeon and have been practicing for 17 years. I see MRI data and X-rays everyday. Most of what I see is worse than Dave’s and the only option is surgery. These are from people who have less than five years of training. With any sport over time damage will be done – its not if but when. The better the training the longer the when. Dave started competeting in 1983 and retired in 2006. He went 23 years before having any serious joint issues. I see many things in my office but rarely see this. Many have suggested his injuries demonstrate poor training habits. I beg to differ, from what I see is someone who knew how to train and did things right.
The injury debate is stupid! As the doctor pointed out Dave trained 30 years before having a career ending injury. To compare this to Greg G and crossfit is stupid. I think Greg doesn’t even do the WOD and may not even train. When I asked about this I was told it was due to an injury he suffered in his gymnastic days. There is no doubt Greg has a better business mind then Dave but to make any comparison on training knowledge or injuries is not fair to either. They are vastly different.
I wonder why you never get these sort of responses when any other training method besides Crossfit is introduced. It seems Crossfit supporters will go to all ends to insure that others know that their program is the best. My question is WHO CARES? If you want to Crossfit and I train for strongman you are going to be better at somethings and I will be better at others, again WHO CARES? It is about personal choice. Crossfit comes with some good ideas and some bad. Anyone who blasts Dave Tate for his injuries should look at a program that tells novices to attempt Olympic lifts while exhausted from other activities, I’m not even sure Olympic athletes could maintain safe and proper form under those circumstances. But I don’t Crossfit so honestly I don’t care. I’ll keep training how I train you can keep Crossfitting and we will all be stronger than the lazy asses watching CSI reruns all day.
JC – well said in almost every respect.
Paul, so now that the article has 100 comments and google klout you’re going to post your reply on your blog site to siphon traffic. Well played!
Ted, if only I were so savvy. Don’t know a thing about that stuff. Really didn’t think anyone was still reading!
Posted here: http://fireofthegodsfitness.blogspot.com/2013/01/answering-coach.html
Paul,
As noted, well played on the intraweb traffic redirect to your blog so we can see how awesome you are. Staying true to the crossfit nature.
Ted, I see your snide (contemptuous?) comment, and call with a thanks for noticing how the sun never sets on my awesomeness
i realize this hasnt been posted on for a month but i have to point a few things out
first off i am believer in both styles of training(well by that i mean i ran 531 for 2 years or so and crossfit mainsite for about a year )
, its just different goals , I certainly think everyone is entitled to choosing their own goals in the realm of strength and fitness , theres good things about both
i regularly read things on both elite fts and the cf journal and have followed programming from both sites from time to time depending on what i wanted to focus on or felt like doing
i dont see why it has to be an us vs them conversation but if we are going to argue over dave vs greg
i dont get how people are pointing out daves injuries given the fact that dave is currently in amazing shape and greg glassman is pretty damn overweight
dave trains and will continue to train as far as i can tell
im guessing greg eats alot of mickey d’s